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Author Topic: Shawn Kelly  (Read 21854 times)

Pauli Laasonen

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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2003, 06:27:15 AM »
Thanks alot for doing this Shaw, i've really been enjoying your long answers. ;)

Here's a few questions i came up with!

- Do you feel like your older animations never match up to the ones you've done recently? Is it always that the newest stuff is the best or just a matter of some elements "klicking" when you get a good animation done?

- When was the first time you saw/realized that you've improved and how did you see that?

- I'm a beginner in animation and find myself struggling with long animations (should i really be doing these?), with no camera cuts. How do you manage with longer shots? I refine a small bit of animation at a time, is it a bad way to go?

- How much do you improvise during the animating, could you give an example perhaps? :)

Ok, that's all ninja master.  :ph34r:

 :)  
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ronny kim

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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2003, 12:52:00 PM »
hey shawn,

how's it going?  

you talk about people being happy or grumpy as if there are only two kinds of people in the world...  is it cool to be somewhere in between?  aren't we as artists supposed to be bipolar, moody, sensitive, creative-type people?

also, you say in order to be happy, it's all a state of mind...  could it be... perhaps...  an altered state of mind?

i mean look at the nemo dvd.  those guys are on crack!  

anyway, great stuff man.  you obviously know a crapload about animation and i will continue to await your responses eagerly...

-ronny
 
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David Sloss

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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2003, 04:48:54 PM »
I've got this sticky on my desktop (a little text file) and every evening since last Monday I've been pasting your comments into it with the intention of printing it all out when your done, and every night when I read and paste in the new replies, I think: 'Holy sh*t! This is excellent--he can't possibly share anything as good as this tomorrow night!', and yet here we are...it's Friday evening! and I now have an enormous file that is an absolute goldmine and a real inspiration!

 :lol:

Thank you for sharing Mr. Kelly!
No, it's too late to ask for cash.

David
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oh.
I'll get my coat then.

Rick May

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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2003, 04:51:47 PM »

Another "Ask The Pro" has come to an end.  


No more questions can be asked, but Shawn can continue to answer questions if he likes..  Or he can just quit where he is.. :D   It's his call.


I'd like to thank Shawn for stopping by and agreeing to chat.. And thanks to the CGCHAR members for making this forum a success.


 

Shawn Kelly

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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #94 on: November 21, 2003, 05:29:31 PM »
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Another "Ask The Pro" has come to an end.  


No more questions can be asked, but Shawn can continue to answer questions if he likes..  Or he can just quit where he is.. :D   It's his call.


I'd like to thank Shawn for stopping by and agreeing to chat.. And thanks to the CGCHAR members for making this forum a success.
I'm still at work, but I'll get to all the rest of the questions tonight or tomorrow!

In the meantime, thanks for the opportunity to hang out with you guys, Rick.  I had (am having) a ton of fun answering the questions.  You guys really thought up some doozies!

shawn ;)
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Shawn Kelly
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Shawn Kelly

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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #95 on: November 21, 2003, 06:21:54 PM »
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I know everyone's said it, but thanks a lot for doing this.  Your answers have given me a lot of ideas for improving my animations.

1) When you ask riggers to put certain things into a rig, what sorts of things do you ask for?  Is there anything special you find really helpful or that you couldn't live without?

2) I know you said you couldn't really answer questions about proprietary software, but could you ballpark the percentage of inhouse software that you use at ILM compared to commercially available software?  Can you tell us what commercial packages you use at work?

3) If you had to have one job other than being an animator, what would it be?

4) Any plans to write a book on animation?
I'm pretty sure our rigging stuff is confidential (as far as I know) so I don't think I can really go into rigging stuff.  Generally speaking, we ask for anything that helps us animate faster, and/or things that give us more control over different parts of the body.

As far as a ballpark of proprietary stuff...  Hmmm.  For animators, I would say it's about 50-50 proprietary, or maybe even 60-40 (60% proprietary).  It changes depending on your show, too.  For other disciplines though, it can be 90% proprietary.

Because of contracts with the different vendors, I'm also not sure if it's okay to discuss which off-the-shelf stuff is being used.  Sorry.  I know in the past it's been an issue, so I'm ducking that one!  :)

3) If you had to have one job other than being an animator, what would it be?

My favorite job other than this (so far) was working in a coffee-shop.  I had SO MUCH FUN there, met tons of weird/funny/cool/bizarre people, and actually it was a great "reference library" for personalites.

However, if I had to choose...  Hmmm.  That's a tough one!  I'd say Pro Surfer but they have to wake up really early in the morning, and I'm HORRIBLE for that.  (i've only surfed once, but LOVED it.)  Sand and sun - for me, that's what I really want.  I had an amazing trip to Cancun over the summer, and it really cemented it for me - I want to live, like, ON the sand!  :)

You know what?  I'd be a writer.  I love writing short-stories, scripts, anything like that.  I LOVE it.  Just as much as animating, actually.  That's what I'd pick.  If I could become a decent writer and make enough money at it that I could live on a beach... boom - I'm there.

4) Any plans to write a book on animation?

Ha!  Holy cow - waaay too much on my plate as it is, but thanks for the compliment!  Between work, teaching, and a personal project I spend every spare moment on, I'm pretty much hosed for time!

I do wish there were more things out there like that, though.  Stuff like Richard Williams' book.  I'd love to hear more from professionals (kind of like this forum, actually!).  

Getting constant feedback from a pro like Wayne Gilbert really gave me what I needed to get into this business in the first place.  I don't know how long it would have taken without the crazy ninja power-boost that guy gave me!

If I ever do get to do anything cool like that, you guys will be the first to know!  ;)

shawn  
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Shawn Kelly
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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #96 on: November 21, 2003, 06:27:47 PM »
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Thanks tons for doing this, btw. This thread is a great read!

I had one more question: When short on time, do you ever reuse keyframes and then tweak them or do you do every key from scratch?
Thanks Christiaan!

1.  When short on time, do you ever reuse keyframes and then tweak them or do you do every key from scratch?

I pretty rarely do this.  I would say that 98% of the time it's better (and often easier) to just do it from scratch.

Every once in a while, though, I'll go to a frame that happens a couple frames before my "real" key pose (say, frame 10 if my key is on 13, or something), create a pose out of that and move it to some other place in the scene and then tweak from there.

I'd only really do this if I need the character to be in a really similar pose as he was in frame 10 (which was kind of "on the way" to pose 13), and maybe he'd gotten really twisted around or into a very different position by that point in the shot.  Using frame 10 could help me get him back into position and untwist anything that might have been slightly skewampas by then...

I almost never do that, though....

- shawn ;)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 06:28:22 PM by Shawn Kelly »
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Shawn Kelly
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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2003, 05:44:02 PM »
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AAAAAAAAAAAhhhh
Shawn, you're writing faster that I can read !!!  ;)
I have not really a question...
I just wanted to say thank you, this "ask the pro" section is so great !!
Do the animators have a particular genetic code that makes them so cool or are you all eating kitkat ??  :D

I would like to spend a few bucks....BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! .......wow stop ...it's too expensive!
ha ha ha ha!  No problem.  Thanks for the great feedback!!

I don't know how cool *I* am, but I will say that animators tend to fall into two camps:  loner hermits who hole up in a corner and animate (sometimes creating something amazing), and pretty much the most fun people I've ever met in my life.

Especially by the time you get a place like ILM.  Once you get into a big feature studio, you're surrounded by people who love the same stuff you do, who struggled and perceviered the same way you did, who were dedicated the same way you were, and who had the attitude and professionalism necessary to land that job in the first place.

So you pretty much get to hang out with brillian people who are generally extremely helpful, fun, and hilarious, while also being dedicated and extremely professional.  Also, it's a pretty damn hard job to do if you're low on energy, so you do get a fair number of Bobby Becks summersaulting through the hallways...    :)

shawn ;)
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Shawn Kelly
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Shawn Kelly
« Reply #98 on: November 22, 2003, 06:07:19 PM »
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Thanks alot for doing this Shaw, i've really been enjoying your long answers. ;)

Here's a few questions i came up with!

- Do you feel like your older animations never match up to the ones you've done recently? Is it always that the newest stuff is the best or just a matter of some elements "klicking" when you get a good animation done?

- When was the first time you saw/realized that you've improved and how did you see that?

- I'm a beginner in animation and find myself struggling with long animations (should i really be doing these?), with no camera cuts. How do you manage with longer shots? I refine a small bit of animation at a time, is it a bad way to go?

- How much do you improvise during the animating, could you give an example perhaps? :)

Ok, that's all ninja master.  :ph34r:

 :)
Pauli?  Like Paulie Walnuts????!!!  THat's a cool name!!!

Okay, sorry...  I'm a rabid Sopranos fan...   Back to the questions!

1) Do you feel like your older animations never match up to the ones you've done recently? Is it always that the newest stuff is the best or just a matter of some elements "klicking" when you get a good animation done?

Ideally, we should all be striving towards the goal of each shot being better than the one you just finished.  Of course, this doesn't always work out, but it's certainly a worthy thing to be reaching for every time!!

Generally though, I tend to look back on any animation I did more than a couple years ago and pretty much cringe.  Which, to me, is a healthy sign.  Sure, I think some of the older stuff I did is still okay or fun or whatever, but it isn't like I can't list 10 things about it I wish I had done differently.

If you look at something you did 5 years ago and really still can't think of any way you would change it, to me that's a big sign that you've stopped learning, you've plateaued.  To me, what's the point, then?  There's so much to learn about animation, why ever stop?  Why ever get an ego to the point where you feel like you have nothing more to learn?

I know a few animators like that, by the way.  And their work suffers because of it.

I knew a guy once who said, "The day you think you know everything there is to know about something is the day that you're a failure."

2) When was the first time you saw/realized that you've improved and how did you see that?

Hmmmmm.  When I was working on Star Wars 1, I looked back at my demo reel and was completely embarassed by it.  I had already learned so much just in my first year at ILM that the majority of the stuff on my reel truly embarassed me.  At first, it made me feel like I didn't belong at ILM, or that I was going to be "found out" and any minute Rob Coleman or whoever would walk into our office and say, "Sorry, Shawn.  Turns out we made a big mistake." and my dream would be smashed and I'd be let go.  I mean, I was surrounded by animation veterans, or people from CAL-Arts and SHeridan, and a lot of times I felt like "what the hell am I doing here?"

But I realized two things:  First, if I thought my reel sucked, that must mean that I'm better than I was a year earlier when I had sent it in.  And second, so what if all these guys knew more about animation than me?  What better learning opportunity could I ever find then THAT!?  So boom - I turned it into a full-fledged ask-a-thon, where I'd ask people for feedback, ideas, tips, help, critique, etc., ALL THE TIME!!!   I'm still a lot like that, and I'm still learning like crazy!

A lot of times, it's all about checking your ego at the door and just being open to learning, open to criticism.  Don't be afraid to show your work to people.  Don't feel like they are going to look down at you or laugh behind your back that you aren't half the animator they are.  Those are all stupid fears in your head.  People don't do that.  Animators tend to be pretty helpful people, generally eager to pass on knowledge and help out the newer folks.  At least, people at ILM have been that way, so maybe I was just really lucky...  (you guys are lucky too - CG-CHAR seems to be a great format for this type of exchange).

What people *DO* do, is gossip, of course.  Sure, I'll hear some snickers about this animator or that scene or whatever, but you know what?  It's NEVER EVER at the people who are eager to learn, who are actively seeking help and soaking up the tips from those around them like a gigantic sponge.  The snickers are aimed at the egomaniacs who think they know it all but don't, or the people too full of themselves to "lower" themselves to a level where they could feel okay about asking people around them for feedback.  

Once again, it's all about attitude.

3)- I'm a beginner in animation and find myself struggling with long animations (should i really be doing these?), with no camera cuts. How do you manage with longer shots?  I refine a small bit of animation at a time, is it a bad way to go?

To be honest, I'd say that no, you definitely shouldn't be doing these, especially as a beginner.  No way.  I'm not sure what you mean by "long" but to me, more than 100 frames is pretty long for a beginner to be doing a test.  I'd say 100-120 frames should be PLENTY to practice mechanics and basics, which is DEFINITELY what you should be focusing 100% of your time on.

As far as refining, if you do your planning properly (reference, thumbs, acting it out, studying it, figuring out your overlap, arcs, paths ahead of time), your "refining" shouldn't be too much trouble.  But yeah, once you do get into that final polishing mode, I do a "piece" at a time.  I'll often grab one wrist controller and go through the whole scene checking it's arcs and overlap and polish up that one wrist, then move to the other wrist, and so forth.

- How much do you improvise during the animating, could you give an example perhaps? :)

Very little.  Maybe in tiny ways.  A head nod where I hadn't planned one, or an eye dart where I hadn't planned one.  Maybe (MAYBE) even a gesture where I hadn't planned one, but beyond that I'll probably be going "off my planning" to the point where I should be re-planning the scene so it remains cohesive and strong.

Yeah, once you're in a production environment (especially for you games/TV guys) it can become almost impossible to say, "well, I think I need some different gestures here, and he should walk out screen left instead of screen right" and then go back, re-flim, re-thumbnail, and re-plan the scene.  Sometimes time-constraints prevent this, and that's when you're kind of hosed and you need to just do the best you can to make the changes as solid as you can at the time.

But for you students doing tests on your own - holy cow.  Don't do any major improvising once you're in front of the computer -- what a gigantic waste of time.  Even if you get your new idea crammed into the scene, you're going to spend a ton of time making it TRULY work and fit in, you're going to spend weeks tyring to really make it look polished and feel right...  You'll save a TON of time, but re-fliming your reference, keeping what you can from your previous version of the animation, dumping the rest, and re-posing that new section from scratch.

Remember, the more you plan ahead, the faster your scene will get done and the better it will look.  That's 100% true, as far as I'm concerned.

And you know what?  I see it at ILM all the time, in my own work and in others.  The people who tend to plan their work are the best animators in the company.  Without a doubt.  And the shots I've done lazy planning for?  Well, they aren't ever going onto my demo reel, I can tell you that much...  :)

shawn ;)
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Shawn Kelly
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« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2003, 06:51:13 PM »
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hey shawn,

how's it going? 

you talk about people being happy or grumpy as if there are only two kinds of people in the world...  is it cool to be somewhere in between?  aren't we as artists supposed to be bipolar, moody, sensitive, creative-type people?

also, you say in order to be happy, it's all a state of mind...  could it be... perhaps...  an altered state of mind?

i mean look at the nemo dvd.  those guys are on crack! 

anyway, great stuff man.  you obviously know a crapload about animation and i will continue to await your responses eagerly...

-ronny
Hi Ronny...

1)  how's it going?

Pretty good, actually!  I have a wicked cold, but I just bought a gallon of Orange Juice and a jar of Vitamin C and a ton of chicken-noodle soup!  Let the cold-assault begin!!!   :)

2)  you talk about people being happy or grumpy as if there are only two kinds of people in the world...  is it cool to be somewhere in between?  aren't we as artists supposed to be bipolar, moody, sensitive, creative-type people?

Hmmm.  That's actually an interesting question(s).

Here's what I honestly think:

First of all, no one is 100% happy non-stop.  Bad things happen in life.  Sad things.  People die.  People leave.  People get sick.  Dreams can get smashed.  I know that just as much as anyone else.  But you move THROUGH those bad times and strive for something better in life, you know?  Something a little brighter, hopefully.  Doing that is a conscious effort to drag yourself up out of that crappy time, you know?  So that's a temporary situation.  It might last a full year, even, but it's temporary.  It isn't "who you are."  

You are right that there are 1000 shakes of grey in between being a "grump" and being  happy.  Definitely.  But as far as I'm concerned, it is 100% up to you which shade of grey you are living in and how closely that shade leans towards either side of that spectrum.  Or at the very least, it's up to you which shade you're at least trying to get back to.  All of us exist somewhere in between grump and happy, but to me, I try to stick as closely as I can to the "happy" side of the spectrum!

Sure, you're never going to be completely happy all the time.  Hopefully you're never going to be completely grumpified all the time, either.  But why people choose to stay in the "gumpier" "moodier" side of life, I'll never understand.  Some people think it's "cool" to be mopey.  Some people like to be melancholy, I guess.  Fine.  That's a personal choice.  Good for them.   But I was talking about those "moods" in reference to GETTING A JOB in animation, which I assume is the end-goal of a lot of CG-CHAR's readers.  And choosing to be a moody, grumpy, dark, suspicious, negative, pessimistc person, frankly, is going to be a HUGE road-block on your way to getting a job at a studio.

I know you totally know all of this stuff -- I see that you work at Blue Sky (right on!), so I'm really just speaking to the crowd here, in case anyone has questions along these lines...

At the end of the day, your potential employer needs to know only two things.  First, can you do the work?  And second, and JUST AS IMPORTANTLY, can they work easily with you?  If the answer to either of those is "no," you aren't getting that job.  That said, we don't all have to be psychotically manic, either!!!  :)

Everyone is different.  We all have vastly disperate personalities.  We've all come from different backgorunds and been through different expiences.  I totally see where you're coming from -- but in my mind, it's up to us to make that conscious choice that says, "I want to work in the animation industry, and to do that, I'll need to spend the vast majority of my career getting along well with teams of people at a studio, and in order to do THAT, I need to make sure I have at least have a friendly attitude."

Animation differs from many other artforms in an important way.  Animation is not a private reclusive art, that something like "painting" could be.  As a painter, it probably doesn't matter what your attitude is, as long as your attitude helps you convey whatever it is you are trying to convey with your painting.  You don't have dailies.  You don't have production folks to work with, TD's to send your painting to.  You dont have an animation supe, a lead, and a director all telling you how to paint.

Animation is a group-effort.  It's more communal. We cannot possibly create your best animation without a healthy amount of feeback from other human beings.  We can't just hole-up in your room or office and create a masterpiece with no one else to give you ideas, suggestions, ideas of what is and isn't working, emotions that are and aren't reading, etc.  Not unless you're one of the best in the world.  I'm sure Glen Keane could go into my office and whip out the best animation possible.  But unless you're GLen Keane, you're going to need a lot of pairs of eyes on your work.  

This same idea holds true once you finally get that job and get into a studio environment.  You can't be a hermit.  You just can't.  Even if you try, you're still going to AT LEAST be subjected to dailies.  You HAVE to work with other people.  And you have to be able to do that well.

I know that many of you currently animate in your bedroom or wherever.  We all started there.   For you, animation is fairly isolated.  Maybe you upload your stuff to cg-char for feedback, but that's even a bit "faceless" as far as feedback goes.   And it's a bit of a culture shock to suddenly get a pro job and have people telling you what to do.  Telling you to delete your favorite part of the scene (which happens to ALL of us at times).  You went from animation being kind of a reclusive lonely artform to suddenly working as part of a TEAM, and that "team" could be anywhere from 10-500 people, so you better prepare yourself for the fact that if those 500 people don't feel like they can communicate with you, or get along with you, your stay at that company may be extremely short-lived.

Communication skills can drastically affect someone's animation career.  Definitely.  Being able to talk and relate with those around you, and having a positive attitude (at least at work and as it pertains to your art) is essential, as far as I'm concerned, to your success as an animator.  And part of being a professional is knowing that.

And no, it isn't an "altered" state of mind.  Not sure if you're referring to drugs or just saying I'm a nutball, but it's a real thing.  Bobby doesn't pretend to be happy.  Carlos doesn't *make* himself jazzed about animation.  I don't have to conciously *try* to be crazy ninja-excited about my work.  It's real, and I honestly feel like the reason that the three of us are where we are today (while a lot of those shades-of-grey-leaning-towards-grumps people are not) is because of our attitdue, our energy, and our excitement.

And like I said before, I'm aiming my responses at people who want to get a job animating.  Any of you who want to just animate for yourself and your mom, feel free to disregard all of this stuff!  If you just want to animate as a hobby and never care about getting that job, a lot of my advice doesn't apply so much...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2003, 01:49:01 AM by Shawn Kelly »
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