8 - What exactly is this digital pencil shooter you're talking about?
Well, there are a number of options available. Just Google for some names and you get some hits. You can import images and use something like Plastic Animation Paper to time out scenes. You can some stop motion software like StopMotionPro. You can use other traditional animation tools like Bauhaus Mirage or ToonBoom or CTP Pro. A whole page of possible programs that can be hijacked to time out CG animation can he found here... http://www.stopmotionworks.com/stopmosoftwr.htm
I like to use Dave Perry's MonkeyJam. It's free and it's simple, plus Dave's an animator, so he knows how to make it work for animation. The concept on how to use these tools for CG is pretty easy. Pose your character in stepped mode in CG. Then export single frame preview renders of your character's poses. For a typical scene you'll probably export 7-10 images. Maybe more if you're putting a lot in your blocking like I do. But just export the poses, nothing else. If you work in stepped mode then this is simple, really. Just export each key as an image then import the images along with your sound file into any of the software I mention above. Then using the timing tools in that program just slide the images to correspond with the sound file. Make a preview (usually in mere seconds) and watch the result. Adjust as you see fit. Preview again, adjust. The benefit is fast turnaround of your ideas. The more revisions the better your work. It's exactly the same as working in stepped mode, but instead of asking the computer to slowly calculate a held frame of a fully deformed rig in CG when you make a preview, the 2d software does it in near realtime with just the images. Now you can play around with different timings quickly and easily. You can try literally dozens of adjustments and permutations of your timing in minutes because the previews are created so quickly with just images. Once you find the timing you like, just note the frames the images fall on, go back to your CG package and "slide" your pose keys out in the timeline to match. It's like animating in 2d, but instead of drawing each pose key with a pencil, you draw it with your CG program instead. It's a hybrid of using old pre-CG animation methods and new tools.
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9 - What kind of software do you use for drawing animation?
I can't draw worth a poop anyhow, but I really can't draw worth a poop on a Wacom. Maybe a Cintique, but I don't have the cash for one of those. So if I animate something by hand I draw it out on paper the old fashioned way and scan it in. Color in Photoshop and time in MonkeyJam. If I had a tablet PC I'd look at PAP again, but sometimes that interface bugs the snot out of me.
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10 - Again, on posing: how would you describe a good/great pose, what are you looking for in a pose, how much time do you spend on your key poses, how much detail do you put in your drawings if you plan stuff on paper (or digital paper), what are the parts (of a drawing/pose) that you spend most time on and which parts seem to be the most difficult for you to nail down accurately?
Wow, 5 questions in one! Awesome! OK, first: What makes a great pose? It's vibrant, alive, it feels like it's moving even when it's by itself, it has great kinetic energy, even if the character isn't moving much in the scene. It communicates immediately, clearly, precisely and with such a sense of life. A great pose just jumps out at you. It breathes just in how it feels. Everything feels right, nothing feels forced or awkward.
How much time do I spend on my poses? As much as I need. If it takes me more than an hour to get something right, then I take that time. I've spent hours on a single pose before. And then the next day I'll come back and tweak and improve and plus it for another hour. And why not? If I find it then it's done, I'll never have to touch it again. So why not take the time? And sometimes the pose just jumps out and it's there in 5 minutes. I take as long as I need until the things that I describe above about great poses apply to what I have just made on screen.
How much detail is in my thumbnails? Not much. Just the basics, really. Body, head angle, eyes, basic facial expression, maybe fingers now and then. But my thumbs are literally fleshed out stick figures. I save the detail work for the Cg puppet, since that's where the detail is will evnetually be rendered for production. In thumbnail stage it's about capturing the larger strokes and ideas.
What parts do I spend more time on? I spend a lot of time capturing a facial expressions and hand positions that sell the emotion. That and head angles. Again, if I find it and communicate it I am able to move on and have great confidence with the thing. Another thing I like to work on a lot is the internal weight of a character- the sense that their body parts have meat and muscle and substance- that things are settled and lying where they like to lie down, that a character feels comfortable in their own skin when they move, stand, talk, gesture. It's hard to describe, but it's something I take a lot of time trying to capture.
What's the hardest for me to nail down? All of it. Heh. I tend to spend a lot time trying to get the face to feel right. So much emotion can be expressed so powerfully there that it's super important for me to nail that and communicate the thought immediately and clearly- but without going cliche'.
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11 - What's your take on gestures and on Walt Stanchfield's stuff, if you've read/seen it?
I have read them all, and as much as I can assimilate the concepts I do. Much of the stuff is very easy to grasp and apply to my work- pushing things to have more life, interpret the moment rather than capture it, etc.. But sometimes he writes about drawing like a person writing about music. It's very hard to express or bottle an idea like music or drawing in just words. Sometimes the best way for me to understand the Stanchfield notes is to go and draw and then come back and review what he says through the lense of my drawing experience. That's my thought on them anyhow. I'm nowhere near the level I need to be at drawing anyhow. heh.
Keep 'em coming!
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keith lango storyteller/animator www.keithlango.com
Well, I don't have any animation related question to ask you, as they get answered in the VTS.
Wow! That's the nicest compliment I've had yet. Cool. Thanks!
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Okay, some questions! 1) Where did you learn animation? Did you start out by making 2d animations?
I learned pretty much on my own with help from others. Way, way back in the very early days of Cg-Char was when we were kicking stuff around and getting feedback. It was a very cool community back then. It's still cool now, but I'll always fondly remember the listserve days- and before that the 3dSIG Thursday night chats on AOL. That was like 1993, 1994? Yeah, old school, baby! Heh. Anyhow I learned mostly from doing, from getting feedback from fellow animators and from doing some more and then getting feedback from better animators. Then I did some more animating. And after that I think I animated some more. Heh. When I started there weren't many (any?) CG animation courses or books available. Everybody was trying to figure this stuff out. And what schools were out there weren't much of an option for me. I had a small family to support so being a fulltime student wasn't a reality at the time. So it was many long nights and weekends of working on my own stuff for years until I got to where I was good enough to get paid to animate. I started in CG (I used to be a really decent lighter/shader guy before I got into animation). But after a couple years of doing animation and getting some decent results and some nice compliments I realized that I was really just a talented discoverer of happy accidents on the computer. I was not a real animator who knew what I was doing. So I decided to put down the mouse and pick up a pencil. For about 5 or 6 months in 1997 or so I just animated with a pencil, trying to learn all I could about what it really means to animate. That was the single best decision I ever made in this business.
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2) What inspired you to do all that charity work, and move to Brazil?
So much mercy has flowed my way in my life- from friends, from family, from strangers, from heaven. It would be criminal of me to not be a conduit of mercy to others.
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3) In Brazil, are you also working in some animation studio?
Just my own, kLango Animation. I'm not on staff anywhere else if that's what you mean. Just me here. For now.
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4) When are you planning to come back to the US?
To visit? Probably November. To live? I dunno. Next year? 10 years from now? Never? I don't make long range plans or goals, to be honest. I have no idea where I will be two years from now. Kinda keeps things fun and exciting that way.
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Oh yes one last SILLY question. I didn't get what you're saying here in this line. What is this "Pencil shooter"? Is it somekind of software that you use? Never heard of it before! And how does it help you to adjust timing?? I wanna try it too. Will I have to puchase/download it from somewere?
See above post.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 10:10:23 PM by keithlango »
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keith lango storyteller/animator www.keithlango.com
Thanks a lot Mr. Lango for giving such a nice reply! Hey, I have that MonkeyJam software and I use it in my 2d animations. But I never thought of importing single frame preview renders of my character into MonkyJam and then play with the timings. Nice idea! Why didn't I think of that before? Its much better than doing those playblasts!! I also like to use Jason Schleifer's Grease Pencil http://www.jonhandhisdog.com/shh-life-er/?p=168 to block my scene and do much more. Its really a nice handy dandy tool.
Okay, just one animation related question. I just had to ask this one! My question is: I'm gonna animate "Angry Walk". Is it okay for me to flip the legs and the elbows, the way Richard Williams is doing in Animator's Survival Kit (Page# 126)?? He calls it "breaking the joints". Will it be okay for me to do that kind of stuff in CG? Will it look good? There maybe some stuff which you can do in a 2d animation but it will not look good in a 3D animation, what are they? I've seen angry walk animations of some AM students, and I don't see any leg flipping or joint breaking. So, should I follow Animator's Survival Kit for doing the Angry Walk?? Or should I just ignore that kinda stuff for my 3D animation? Well thats my question!
Oh yeah! Yesterday I got VTS 17. Its GREAT and really fun to watch!! You know what? Its getting better and better everytime.
Thanks again for replying me Mr. Lango and thanks fror the VTS. See ya! -A
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 02:24:29 PM by Amrit Derhgawen »
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Most of my cliches aren't original. Amrit Derhgawen Animator|Story Guy Animation Blog
supercool supercool. ok ok ok ok, let me seeeee.... first, thanks for replying with so much detail, you're awesome. I actually found today a review on Bauhaus Mirage, looks more than impressive, I'm going to dl a demo and test it.
One more thing I'd like to ask you about software, this would be question... (my counter ignores the fact that question 10 was a multiple thingy, eh, these software...)
12 - do you know any video player soft that allows you to draw on top of video, sort of like Maya's Fcheck, but a player that supports video, not only image sequences? (Also Fcheck has really limited drawing possibilities, and no undo).
OK, here are more animation questions:
13 - how do you plan/deal with a multiple characters scene, when they have to interact with each other, so the movement of one character will influence that of another?
14 - any tips on smoothing arcs (how do you deal with physical and rig limitations, but you still need your arcs to be smooth - for example not having a stretchy rig, and the leg is fully extended, and it needs a little more extension to describe the arc you want, but if you move the hips you break the hips' arc...)?
15 - when posing, what would you consider more important: the logic of the pose (hips vs chest angles for instance being accurate) or the animation flow, keeping arcs and lines of action fluid? To what extend do you cheat posing in 3D (since drawing is more loose and flexible but a 3D puppet is precise and merciless)?
16 - and how? (any tips on cheating posing in 3D...)
17 - similar with 15 but more focused - how careful are you with the relationship hips-chest as far as angles go? Do you keep track of them all throughout the shot, or do you let the pose be more.... loose and not always care about these angles?
18 - you once wrote about your shoulderless characters :-) How did you cheat not having shoulders, or how would you do it now? Any thoughts on shoulders in general... this is a pretty generic question...
19 - you also wrote that you've discovered some rigidity in your animation because of the way you've handled the spine. how did you handle it before, and how do you do it now? again, any thoughts on the spine...
20 - I found the line of action to be something easy to watch for in animation, but the spine rather obscure... would you be so kind and make a comparison of: spine-versus-line-of-action?
21 - more focused - from your experience and knowledge, how often people really flip their spine, and same question for the line of action. also, where would you draw a line between flipping the spine to keep the character flexible and flipping it too much... ? :-)
22 - should I dare for more questions, on facial animation? :-D
1. Did you, or Dave Tart, or any of the other supervising animators implement any kind of "artist development" while animating on Ant Bully? I saw Karen Prell had a puppet day, but where there any figure drawing classes or animation lectures to supplement dailies?
2. What was the most common peice of advise you had to give to people who were animating on your sequences to help them improve their shots?
My question is: I'm gonna animate "Angry Walk". Is it okay for me to flip the legs and the elbows, the way Richard Williams is doing in Animator's Survival Kit (Page# 126)?? He calls it "breaking the joints". Will it be okay for me to do that kind of stuff in CG? Will it look good? There maybe some stuff which you can do in a 2d animation but it will not look good in a 3D animation, what are they? I've seen angry walk animations of some AM students, and I don't see any leg flipping or joint breaking. So, should I follow Animator's Survival Kit for doing the Angry Walk?? Or should I just ignore that kinda stuff for my 3D animation?
The best answer I can give you is this: Try it and see what you think! I do think that given the proper marriage of production design and motion design that you absolutely can do those 2d things. Without a doubt. And it can look great, too. Would it work on a character from Final Fantasy? Probably not so well. But on a character from Chicken Little or A Bug's Life? You bet! I say go for it and see what you find. At this time there are a lot of people exploring what Cg can do in captuing more of the energy and style of hand-drawn, and I'm not just talking about toon shaders, either.
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Oh yeah! Yesterday I got VTS 17. Its GREAT and really fun to watch!! You know what? Its getting better and better everytime.
Thanks! I have a lot of fun making them. Some stress, too, but more fun than anything.
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keith lango storyteller/animator www.keithlango.com
12 - do you know any video player soft that allows you to draw on top of video, sort of like Maya's Fcheck, but a player that supports video, not only image sequences? (Also Fcheck has really limited drawing possibilities, and no undo).
Not specifically, no. At least not anything available to the public commercially. There are various studios who have written their own internal software to do this, but you or I can't have them Heh. I know CTP Pro can do it, as can other 2d animation tools lik PAP or Mirage, but they're not really "just" video players. Meaning you're using a big heavy tool to do a simple little job. It'd be great to see something like FramceCycler or MonkyJam add this capability.
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13 - how do you plan/deal with a multiple characters scene, when they have to interact with each other, so the movement of one character will influence that of another?
That's really about choreography. I find who is the dominant character and let them drive the scene. They get first dibs on screen space, staging, etc. They need to do what they're going to do in order to put over the moment. Often this dominance will switch in the middle of a scene, and so then the other character drives things. I'll chart out on paper next to a written out graph of the dialog which character is driving and which is riding. I'll note the switches, too. Then I'll thumbnail the driving character through their section. Often a single thumbnail pose is enough for me to get the idea of what I want to do (or perhaps more importantly- don't want to do) with the listening/riding character. It's important to let the primary character draw th audience's attention. Don't get too fancy trying to add too much to the "listening" character. It just confuses the eye and clutters the message. The listening character should not steal the scene- unless specifically called for in a humorous way. A little keep alive is a great thing- and very hard to do!
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14 - any tips on smoothing arcs (how do you deal with physical and rig limitations, but you still need your arcs to be smooth - for example not having a stretchy rig, and the leg is fully extended, and it needs a little more extension to describe the arc you want, but if you move the hips you break the hips' arc...)?
First rule of the pipeline: Don't break it. So if a rig can't do something, then either I get them to fix the rig or I adjust my motion to accomodate what can be done. A little sacrifice is needed for everybody to do their jobs on most days. As for smoothing arcs other than rig problems, the good ol' dry erase marker is a handy tool. or some arc drawing script or whatever. Another good tip is to play the scene in playback at 1/2 or 2/3 speed. Not so slow that everything looks great (I can never spot a hitch when I step thru my frames), but slow enough to see things with a little less speed to allow your eyes a better chance to catch a problem. Check leading edges, hips, eyes, tops of the head and body parts in strong silhouette mostly. But the major aspects of my arcs are defined in my blocking. I need to see it there to know what I can get away with later.
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15 - when posing, what would you consider more important: the logic of the pose (hips vs chest angles for instance being accurate) or the animation flow, keeping arcs and lines of action fluid? To what extend do you cheat posing in 3D (since drawing is more loose and flexible but a 3D puppet is precise and merciless)?
Neither. One helps the other I think. If you're not careful with the puppet when you pose things you can get odd hitches and artifacts in your motion or on the deformation that show up later on. if you don't think about how the chest and stuff is roated you can get this nasty "snake in a sack" feeling when they transition to the next pose- the skinning looks all weird and bubbling, like theirs a giant snake in their torso shifting its weight when they move. Ugly. And that takes SO much work to get rid of, too. So better to be mindful of the technical aspects of things up front. Just don't let them drive everything you do. It's more of a mindful respect for the technical that frees you to spend more time animating a performance instead of cleaning up for careless work up front. And in so far as the lighting allows for a deformation, I'll yank a puppet into whatever shape I need to in order to get what i want. If it's extreme it's my job to "hide" it so that we avoid the odd artifacts when I move into and out of it. But it has to look good and I can't break things so that other people can't do their job. In a feature film production there are hundreds of people doing their thing to make it all work. Being a good neighbor is a good thing. It's not all just about my animation, as much as we wish it could be.
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16 - and how? (any tips on cheating posing in 3D...)
Think in planes and shapes on a flat screen, not in XYZ coordinates or in joint rotations, etc. It's all about the 2d shape on the flat screen and the patterns of movement on that two dimensional surface. 99% of my puppet bending cheats are driven by that single mandate.
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17 - similar with 15 but more focused - how careful are you with the relationship hips-chest as far as angles go? Do you keep track of them all throughout the shot, or do you let the pose be more.... loose and not always care about these angles?
I think I got that covered back in #15. Bascially, I don't live in fear of these things, but I do respect them and am mindful of them. It's like wearing my seat belt when I drive my car. I don't expect to get in an accident everytime I get in my car, I don't live in constant dread of it, but I do watch what other drivers are doing so I can be prepared (especially here in brazil. heh). But Most of my thoughts are on doing other things, not in 100% avoiding of an accident. I do know it's a real possibility and I need to be mindful of this and act accordingly, but I don't let it dominate my thinking. Same with my approach to the technical side of stuff in animation. If I'm not clear enough just let me know and I'll try to confuse you with a completely different set of words. Heheh.
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18 - you once wrote about your shoulderless characters :-) How did you cheat not having shoulders, or how would you do it now? Any thoughts on shoulders in general... this is a pretty generic question...
Shoulders are nice. I personally am very attached to mine. I cheated by working with upper arm angles, like Wallace in W&G. I also would translate the sockets where the arm connects with the torso to give that same sense of slumping or shrugging. Basically I hate, hate, hate rigging & skinning shoulders. Skinning moreso. So I tend to design characters without them. But when I get a nice rig with good shoulders that are skinned really well, those are fun to animate too. So my aversion is mostly a rigging thing, not an animation thing. But there's still ways around that problem if you don;t have shoulders. It's all in the suggestion of a shoulder.
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19 - you also wrote that you've discovered some rigidity in your animation because of the way you've handled the spine. how did you handle it before, and how do you do it now? again, any thoughts on the spine...
The way I handled it before was to not even know what I was doing and it looked bad. Now I know what I'm doing and it looks bad. Big difference. Heheheh. Actually the biggest thing is getting a sense of inner weight, of the body being settled into itself. It's fixed more in the poses than anywhere else in my opinion. Get a character feeling like their rib cage and inner organs have substance, get the shoulders feeling like there's meat on them, let the bones settle in, work the TY/RX and RZ of the spine controls & hips a little. Rotate the abdomen one way and counter rotate the upper chest a little to the opposite to give that sense of settled weight. To my thinking a torso should feel like nearly full sandbags piled in top of each other instead of rigid blocks in a stack (which is how they're rigged and how they come in by default). Then when you move just add some offset, a little drag and force. Add in the hips, too. Never forget about the hips.
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20 - I found the line of action to be something easy to watch for in animation, but the spine rather obscure... would you be so kind and make a comparison of: spine-versus-line-of-action?
The spine serves the LOA, but it doesn't soley define it. A LOA is about a sense of force, a feeling, energy. Rhe spine is a mechanical construct used to help sell that impression. LOA is the strong opinion, spine is the fact. Strongly presented opinions based on facts spark revolutions. Dry facts put people to sleep. I'll let you decide where to put your energies.
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21 - more focused - from your experience and knowledge, how often people really flip their spine, and same question for the line of action. also, where would you draw a line between flipping the spine to keep the character flexible and flipping it too much... ? :-)
When it feels like it's too much, or that you're reversing your line just for the sake of reversing it, well that's a good sign that you should dial it back. I call this the Death of Animation by Principle, where an animator puts an arbitrary animation principle in their work because all the books say that good animation has all the principles. It's like pouring beef gravy on your ice cream because you saw some dude on the FoodChannel put beef gravy on a dish and he said "Everything tastes great with beef gravy!". But that's enough of my soapbox. Sorry about that. Heh. Ahem. Anyhow..... I personally try to save my line reversals for the largest shifts in the character's emotional state of being. It's such a large force in defining how staging works and how the character uses their space to open up to or close down away from other characters in their world. So for me reversing your line of action or flopping the spine from right leaning to left leaning (vice versa) is something that is perhaps best driven from an emotional need to either approach or retreat from something or someone. Some others might think that's too tight a straightjacket to put on it. I guess so, and true enough it's not the ONLY time to reverse a spine/LOA. Maybe you need to reverse it to build energy for a big move. And sometimes you just need to change things up a bit if a character is feeling stiff. Maybe there is no emotional force to reverse the line, but it's a bit of a long shot and they're feeling a little locked down in pose. A reversal is a good tool to help loosen things up. It's not a primary use of the technique for me, but I do use it now and then. But like I said, I like to have the emotion drive it if I can.
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22 - should I dare for more questions, on facial animation? :-D
Well, we've got til Friday. 8-)
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keith lango storyteller/animator www.keithlango.com
What animated scene or scenes in recent years have particularly stood out and inspired you, and why.
Man, there's been a ton. Where to start? OK, here's a list of my favorites from the last 15 years (in no particular order):
The entire Meeting John Silver sequence in Treasure Planet. I have taught 2 day seminars just from that 2 minutes of film. Amazing stuff.
James Baxter's animation of Quasi Modo in Hunchback where he does the little magic trick with the handkerchief. So beautiful, so subtle, so perfectly amazing.
Buzz Lightyear's rant about combating Emperor Zurg to Woody under the gas truck while looking out to the moon. Perfect.
The middle of the fight between Bob & Helen in The Incredibles. "It's psychotic!"
Tarzan moving down and around the tree fighting the cheetah in Tarzan.
Bob Parr grabbing Mr. Huff by the neck.
All 4 animals in the boxes in Madagascar, especially Melman's scrambling up and down.
Some scenes in Ice Age 2 with the opossum brothers running and intertwining their bodies with these great patterns of motion.
Hopper's rant to Princess Atta. "Do I look stupid... you you?" Oh my goodness. That's probably STILL my all time favorite. I saw that in the theater and wet myself.
The stick bug's complaint about his less than great roles to PT Flea from Bugs Life as well. So clean, so graphical.
Mulan drawing her father's sword and cutting her hair as she prepares to leave home. It's a textbook example of how to handle a moment with less, not more.
Dory's sad moment near the end of Finding Nemo. "But when I'm with you I... I'm home!".
Iron Giant closing his eyes as he says "Superman". Another lesson in letting the moment be what it needs to be.
Jesse's leg scramble and pull of Woody after he does that sideways sherriff walk out of the box. The walk is great, but that scramble is beyond great.
Gollum's schizo dialog with his face reflected in the water pool. Mike Murphy did some amaaaaazing work on that.
So many others. As you can tell I'm really inspired by scenes that are often the emotional core of the film. To me that's when animation is at it's best, not when we get all caught up in the mechanics and geek over motion and stuff. But I could teach a full year college course (maybe 2!) just on those scenes I listed above.
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keith lango storyteller/animator www.keithlango.com
Jeremy's in the ... what? I can't say house, can I? But 'Jeremy's in the forum!' just doesn't have that street cred to it, ya know?
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Thanks for answering all these questions:
That what they pay me for. What?! What do you mean I'm not getting paid? Where's my agent?!
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1. Did you, or Dave Tart, or any of the other supervising animators implement any kind of "artist development" while animating on Ant Bully? I saw Karen Prell had a puppet day, but where there any figure drawing classes or animation lectures to supplement dailies?
Yeah, actually we did. Dave did some really fun presentations on silent film analysis with Buster Keaton. Every couple weeks I would hold a class/gathering/geek fest on animation called the Animation Beatniks Carnival. We'd study different clips and kick around ideas on why they worked, things to look out for in our own work, stuff like that. We did a class on the human animal VHS tapes by Desmond Morris. Karen did her puppet classes which were a riot. Matthew Russell led some classes with the Hollywood Camera DVD's to teach us more about filmmaking and camera use. We had life drawing now and then. Sarah Mensinga did a class on thumbnailing. There was a storyboarding class by Ken Mitchroney, too. Mark Behm or Hamish McKenzie would have demos on how to use new production tools to help us do our jobs better. There may have been others, but I'm forgetting now. A lot of this happened toward the beginning and middle of production, before things got tight and crunchy and folks could spare some time. Once the OT started and we needed to buckle down the classes kinda faded as we were in the zone to get the film done.
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2. What was the most common peice of advise you had to give to people who were animating on your sequences to help them improve their shots?
Well, I wasn't a lead over any sequences in The Ant Bully (completely by choice. All I wanted to do was animate, not manage. I'd had enough of that, thanks). So I didn't have the responsibility to advising anybody of anything. At least not with any sense of authority to it. Heh. But I'd share with the guys and gals around me some things that I thought would help them. A lot of it was workflow type stuff, how to approach the work a little more systematically to make sure they didn't get burnt out. I'd wander into a pod and sit in a chair and talk and look at guys' stuff and offer suggestions here and there. A lot of my advice was given in an "Ol' Uncle Keith" mode and had to do with trusting your ideas, working your blocking, really doing your homework on the scene and then believing in your solutions. And now and then I'd wander off on some tangent about lessons I've learned in life. Stuff like that. I was like the old man in the corner telling stories and crap. I loved it. Heh.
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keith lango storyteller/animator www.keithlango.com
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